• Mon. Mar 1st, 2021

Inside Marketing Design at Webflow – Episode 2

ByDonna9376

Dec 7, 2020

welcome back designers to a new episode of inside marketing design I'm Charlie I'm a marketing designer myself and I've created this series to give an inside look into how marketing design functions at various different tech companies something I was curious about and hopefully if you're listening to this it's because it's something you're curious about too in today's episode we're taking a look inside marketing design at webflow which is one of my favorite companies I'm a very passionate workflow user have been for years they've sponsored my youtube channel before my own website is put on web flow so I was really excited to sit down and talk to Johnny Gomes who is a senior brand designer at web flow now if you haven't heard of web flow before they are a visual development tool so they're a tool you can use to build great-looking websites without needing to code the company has about 170 employees at the moment they do a lot for being a team of that size let me tell you and they're about 70% remote so Johnny who I'm speaking to today is based in DC and he's been on the web flow team for a little over a year something that really stood out to me during my chat with Johnny is actually how little we speak about the design process during this interview there's a lot of talk about how design functions within the company and everything else that goes into being a brand or marketing designer and how it's not always being inside a design tool and making a design happen johnny was super open in this interview talking about challenges he's facing as brand designer as well as challenges that the brand studio team themselves are facing so I think you're really going to enjoy this without further ado let's dig in and take a look inside marketing design add web flow [Music] while joining welcome to inside marketing design I'm really excited to have you here let's start off by talking about the team at web flow and so as I mentioned in my introduction I'm a big fan of workflow team in general I've done some work with him in the past and we've had Ryan who is the what's his height old brand design lead I think every floor he's design manager right design manager okay on the on the show my YouTube channel before but I'm excited to talk to you and get more of like a you know in the weeds look at how design works there so tell me about the brand design team a web flow yeah sure so the brand design which we call brand studio team I think it's like six people right now it's myself we have Ryan as manager and then you have other like four multidisciplinary designers so we have people that work in the Brassica team and they work with other teams externally so for example we have one person that is in charge of the whole education content so they work with a woeful university and they work for all like would the content that's being launched on the YouTube channel then we have somebody that's that's also more focused on social media and works on assets for that and for product lunches then we have a person that is in charge of illustrations and branding and then Camille Esposito and myself we work as senior brand designers visual developers which means you know building stuff in web flow pretty much anything that's needed on the marketing site whether it is you know growth experiments marketing blog anything that's being out like communicated externally cool so within the team there's a few people who have very specific specialties in terms of the like team or like program of work I guess that they work on within web flow but for you and this other brand designer it's a bit more general where you might step in to different things and perhaps be at a more like high level stuff like campaigns and things like that exactly yes yeah cool and where does this brand studio team fit within the rest of the company like for example myself as the marketing signle to convertkit i sit within the marketing team so my manager is the director of marketing what's it like for you Brad studio sits in the same table as product designers okay so it's like a design team yeah and and we're trying to you know to collaborate more and more we oh I work in a company such as well that has their product and their marketing which is very different and we're trying to kind of like get those closer together so that brand can communicate more in the product and and vice versa since we have like two different style guides do different you know guidelines different colors different fonts so we're trying to to have a more consistent communication within the product and within the marketing sites so we're trying to talk more and collaborate more with the product designers however you know marketing being kind of like our like our main fuel to you know to start new projects and have new projects we're also constantly talking to marketing knowing that there's a lot of the marketing aspects that we really I'm nervous we don't really care about what we're not really focusing on on those and what is the main like method of marketing for web flow I'm gonna guess that it's digital and that a lot of your time is spent building like web pages and things like that but is there anything else you can tell me about the approach web flow takes to marketing yeah so what I find really interesting about it that I haven't really seen a lot of companies is lifecycle yeah tell me what is lifecycle it's a lifecycle is pretty much the the customer experience post acquisition okay so it's like the lifespan over the life cycle to do the different stages of the user whether it is like you know like a new one boarding person or if it is like an experienced designer that design lead for a multi-national like a multinational agency or something like that so it's serving the customer pretty much in the most appropriate way at that stage age of their of their cycle right so it's like nothing a bit further than onboarding which is something that like I've been a part of at convertkit because it's talking about not only you getting to know the product but how you use it throughout the whole time that your user exactly and you know you're not supposed to communicate the same way with a not with a beginner user that doesn't like doesn't have any knowledge on HTML and CSS the same way that you would communicate with you know a power user that has been using what's local for I know five years right right yeah and so what sort of work do you end up doing marketing to people who are later in the life cycle what what sort of things come in there yeah so a lot of it it comes from content and I do think that content is you know it's people should design and based on content and content should lead pretty much any any sort of process so a lot of it comes from there then there are things like you know like when you're communicating four different targets considering what flow has like a market for freelancers and working for business owners I'm working for eight agencies and marketing teams there's a specific way to talk to each and every one of those markets whether it comes from like how many technical words to use and your language to what sort of assets use you know maybe sometimes showing the UI and like well you I might be a bit overwhelming for somebody that's just starting and perhaps you want to go for some sort of like illustration or maybe just make something that's only like you know content like copy copy and just well divided hierarchies I'm a big fan of like minimal design and I I'd love to work with only type and of course like you know if there's more things to be included I obviously will but I love to create a nice flow using different hierarchies and different colors and different font sizes so basically the teams will come to us we would not like debrief what their needs are and and work out on a brief we would scope of the work and you know we would we jump into project management tools like a sauna and just like just trying to keep everything more organized and more transparent for us and for external stakeholders I might want to just like jump in and see you know what the status is and how things are are going yeah so when you say external stakeholders in this case you're meaning people outside the brand studio team or are you meeting people exactly flow exactly it's it's usually people outside of the Brazilian team that sometimes have you know they do have feedback sometimes they only just want to check and see how everything is doing and sometimes you know they they're just like the the the final stage of somebody saying like hey this is awesome let's launch this tomorrow or area like giving the approval yeah let's get into talking about a project at web flow so you said that usually it comes that Ryan is one who decides like who's gonna work on what and sort of manages that stream of work do briefs normally come from oh yeah where do briefs come from in the team so briefs usually come from Ryan Ryan Morrison we start working on on the briefs as a branch Duty team yeah um so that we can set expectations for the other teams we started with a very I say like lenient brief with no specific dates no turnarounds nothing too specific for and then Ryan you know we talked within the team to see how that goes if everything's approachable if you know what they've sound good then we would include like the the main stakeholders in that project to see like does this work for you what do you think of this any comments and once pretty much that is set we try to open up either a slack channel so that you know we're all up to date sometimes we're gonna have like two select channels for one for one project which is the one is like for the people are gonna be talking pretty much on a daily basis it's not like on an hourly basis and then we have another one that's more like in general we would have like maybe somebody from the executive team somebody from like from a higher hierarchy just dealings exactly it just for for for updates then we also kinda like create a new project in asana we like to be as specific as possible like we have like tasks with sub tasks such as I don't know like check headings right oh I think yep yep yeah so you know like if it's kind of like our checklist I like and also works as a pre-launch checklist and it's also like a really good way to organize you know who was in charge of what I feel like I sign is one of those deals like you know it only works if everybody uses it and once yeah he's using it you know it it just turns like for me a sign that's pretty pretty much the first thing I see every day and the last thing I see every day I love to get organized in the morning and I love to know what I have on my plate for the next day yeah I feel the same way about Basecamp which is what we use it convertkit that it's a great tool but it really only works if everyone is in it and like you know using it in a similar way yeah okay so who's the one who like say for example like the launch of a new feature who decides how you're going to market a new feature and what work the brand design team needs to do about that yeah so we would have a product marketing management yep they would kind of like approach us like okay so this is what's going on this is what's going to be launched and this is everything that we need call those meetings are usually with people you know somebody from community who's going to be in charge of like publishing this or the launch in social media then you have maybe somebody from engineer so it gets the point that our meetings start to get like very diverse you know we got meetings that we have somebody from each team that's going to be part of this and we kind of do like a debrief of like okay so this is the problem we're addressing this is what what are we trying to hear and then we get very accountable look like okay so you are going to be charged of this okay and it's like it's like it's not we're not looking like for a verbal confirmation but just just to do you know that everybody knows what they're supposed to do and everybody's on track with what's going to happen and and in that meeting we're like you know everybody knows what's expected from each other everybody knows how things are gonna go and it's also a nice way to like if you want to see like okay so I need to know something about the engineering process who kind of contact and sounds just like going through everybody in the team we're just going to there slack channel like hey who's in charge of this you know exactly you know who is going to be in charge of this yeah yeah so there's like one representative from each team that's gonna be part of a project and it's like the go-to person for that exactly and sometimes sometimes I don't like I don't need to like I feel more comfortable maybe just like DMing that person and just like hey heads up this is done let me know what you think instead of just like putting it in the coop for everybody because yeah ID I don't I don't need feedback right now from everybody yeah ie feedback specifically from this person so it's you know it's it's it's a good way to to let people what you're working on and keeping them updated progress yeah and the fact that you have the separate it's like channels as well per project means that you're not overloading the main channels with everything that's going on and that if people are interested in that project they can go in there and keep up to date with it yeah and also like it's very difficult you know for like when the company gets to this point like to have every team using the same app using like everybody using asana for example it's kind of like unrealistic because like not every team prefers asana you know maybe other tools are more efficient for for other teams and that's totally understandable so when I get to the point that you're like talking with somebody from another team and you want to you know you can't just like share like on an asana task like hey what do you think of this we usually keep on asana like a project board and then we usually have like a paper dock or a Google Doc that we can just like also download all information there besides you know like that you check from from slack channels yeah cool so that's a you might have a document that's the overall project plan for everyone in the company to see but as a brand studio you use asana for the nitty gritty and all of the details of a project executive I'm with you I'm with you cool so during the design process for something brand is unrelated at web flow what tools do you use for design do you jump straight into web flow to design something um I'm gonna say no but it's not a hundred percent of the times okay fair enough yes sometimes you know I have just like some sex inspiration so you can just like wait I'm like I know in bed like wait and when it comes to web flow you sort of have this like similar maybe ranch as encoding that sometimes like you'll figure out how to solve an issue while you're doing something else for example you're in bed and then and then I actually think oh wait but what if if I use flexbox vertical and then I Center it and then I'm just like I jump into a web flow and it just you know like start experimenting there usually it's a pen and paper I that's like my might to go thing it's easy it's fast if I you know if I have make a mistake or something I just go to the next page I'll do like really to like very rough drafts just to have like a clear layout a clear structure I kind of like point things with arrows like this would be for this thing or I would use an animation here and that's that would be pretty much for myself perhaps myself and Ryan yeah to discuss the ideas before you move forward to the next phase yeah exactly and you know once once we talk about it then I'm probably gonna jump into Sigma and start doing some higher fidelity but still nod nod not high fidelity just higher than you know just a penny more oh yeah yes exactly and there is where we include other you know other people to give feedback on before we actually jump to to design and then you know when I jump to design when I have like I usually work in thing about with a couple of pages and I'm a designer that works on artboards and then let's say like I I think of like a couple of ways of work on working on this component so I got like duplicate that component along I do the exact same thing yep and I'm gonna have a guy then it gets the form that I'm not gonna like stitching things yeah together like this support for and this pop from our board six yeah exactly so that little like Frankenstein will go to my to my new page which is usually kind of like the final page or people to go away in in figma and comment there young people are not designers to just like go there and you know Sigma has open the collaboration and a huge way and we'd love to use it you know what people that feel comfortable with it they can jump there if not we'll just use Dropbox paper just to track everything just do not mark you know comments that's resolved and just so people that don't even have too much salt in the computers are not willing to use it in their in their browsers they can just jump into a java favor and just comment there right so you're like really flexible with how you receive feedback and you're wanting to make sure that however the person that you need feedback from that they're comfortable giving that that make sense how much autonomy or creativity I suppose can you have in the design process of things is there a very strict design system for the web flow site or yeah tell me about that yeah so we we have full ownership of our work and I hope there's that that's something I love about you know design flow of course you know eventually I'll be tattooed Ryan like hey like yay or nay pretty much but over this year I've learned how to ask for feedback for specific things you know it sounds just like hey what do you think of this it's more like and that goes together with some kind of like design create like crib meetings that we have on Wednesdays that we only talk about you know about feedback like hey okay so this is my project I want to know what do you think of the footer and I want to know of what he's like if you think that the structure is that clear and it's like you know it's easy like it's you it's user friendly it's a good way to have to it to have it that way so at the end I know that Ryan is the one that decides and then of course you know if there's any external stakeholder that has like a strong let's say influence and the decision then of course yes they will come in but as far as as design and goes I have full ownership of everything and yes I did work on guidelines and kinda like style guys to set in place most of them are like time savers yeah I have like a component sicker sheet and wet flow that I can start from that we have are like an eternal guideline of what we should and should not do which kind of goes you know like for grande for components and all there's also a big part of voice and tone and how we should communicate how our call to actions should be how we use our commas that we use our punctuation 'he's very specific how very specific yeah we talked before about content and how you said you should always be designing like to the content where does content come from for a web page for you like who's deciding what needs to be said about a feature for for a new page for example yeah so I love to at least try my best at copy cool um I I'm not a big fan of lorem ipsum I don't see me use it yeah I feel like it's it's not useful it's just you know it's just a block like a blob of text yeah that's pretty much the only thing and it's hard for people to critique the structure of the page and if it's clear if they don't know what's being talked about with as well exactly yeah so what I do with a couple of product marketing managers is they kind of like do they want their wireframe of copy so you know they might have like huge paragraphs and it's really up to me on how I want to to show that like do it maybe I see a paragraph and I'm like okay this is just like way too much copy or it's just going to be a huge block of text so I'm going to break this in maybe like three different parts and maybe emphasize a couple words and maybe have some headlines for this so I do have that back I like leeway I love that you have that autonomy with a copy is that something that you've had it throughout your career cuz for me I have that now converting it but I haven't had it always and I feel like my designs have been much improved since I've been able to have input on the copy myself I'm just wondering if you feel the same yeah so you know at least it gives you that opportunity to just like go for something and maybe that will spark an idea yeah and whoever whoever is actually checking this I've used lorem ipsum for a long time but it's just I always got to the point that I was always changing designs yeah I was I was getting to the point that things were never working out the same way like in from my designs to when it was implemented I'm a multidisciplinary designer I'm like a generalist and trying to get more more specific as as I'm growing and now I'm feeling like I have like a like a strong skill stack but I want I'm trying to go to get out of my comfort zone I'm trying to do public speak that's like my main thing and it's mainly communication whether it is public speaking whether it is documenting whether it is proposing copy and you know maybe seeing some things that I propose live there in the web flow side yeah it just it it feels good yeah totally I love that what is that then what you're trying to get more specific on is you know having the communication skills as part of what you offer as a designer every designer I feel should be able to write their own copy at least propose their own copy and then you know have other people weigh in if it's if it's you know good to launch or not or to weaken it a bit but I feel like every designer should like eventually you should learn how to write copy and documenting yeah also I'm not another huge thing that I think that every designer should write for yeah I love that I think it's especially potent in a remote company as well you know documentation and communication like written communication is vital for getting work done on a remote team it see pretty much the only way to scale up to you know yeah like the more people join your company the more need there is for a guideline or for a manual for something that they're in place for new onboarding people to just like okay so how do we do this like here you go here's the the paper docker yes a Google Doc were you personally I had experience of like doing the same tasks over and over again and web flow and I thought like you know if I document this and I get really specific on the documentation I can open up the game for anybody to do this task I don't need to be doing this task by myself every single time and you know it's gonna it's gonna take a while to well do all that up and have it ready but once you have it you know it's just you just saved yourself some time and you just save some time for other people in the company yeah I love that you're thinking about that stuff too okay let's say project is finish at web flow and it's out there how do you judge if it was successful or not we have a couple of ways some being more qualitative the other one the other is being more about like efficiency about like up perhaps you like working on soft skills so we use tools like segments Mixpanel integrated with Google Analytics and you know a big part of the final result is numbers and dating and I totally understand that data does move you know just keep the the wheels of rolling however since we have a lot of different teams here and sometimes it's like it's like how do you relate a 1% increase to what team under right why yeah it's yeah so so we what we usually do is we have some retro some retro sessions like some records actives that at the end of every project and usually like maybe like the week after that we all get together we all talk as a group on what worked what maybe didn't work and at least for myself I try to be as specific as possible like I try to address the situations as much as I can considering that you know it's this thing is like when something is like a failure try to change it into an opportunity yeah I love that for for a neck like for the next project so you talk about what didn't what didn't work well and then okay what can we change for next time and then once we address those things like okay any new things that we can do from now on to you know do not have this issue I hope that you know eventually it's like you are oily it up annoying it you know looking it to eventually you know make this as efficient as possible and people know what's expected from them it's just a really nice way to see to be self accountable for something that you might up you know might do better in the future and to just see opportunities where you could just like chip in to to make the the final outcome better so it sounds like us the brand studio team do pay close attention to the data yourselves about how how something performed and you are checking that do you have metrics like when you launch a project are you trying to like increase the conversion rate by X percent or something is that sometimes there in the beginning phase – yes so that's how we work with life cycle and with growth a lot of it is you know we usually have some a/b testing before now we're kind of implementing our own tool how that works yep which is also basically like a b c d e or as many as many variables as we can and you know I'm just now getting into like the growth world and seeing how smaller percentages make a huge change yeah yeah you know when you talk about a 1% you're like 1% that's nothing and then 1% you know it's a meaningful change people should be celebrating maybe 1% yeah completely tell me more about this testing how is that working in are you coming up with ideas of things to test actually the growth team opened up the game to anybody that wants to propose an idea so like hey what if we have more call to actions in the home page okay so we have already like an asana project built on built for this where we have like a spreadsheet that is that kind of an experiment creator where you just like fill in the blanks and scripts are created and this all goes to asana and everything is like very integrated in a way that it's just like super easy for me to just like copy and paste a couple scripts on the designer and then creating different divs or different elements are gonna be showing or not and that impacts directly and like ok so how many people actually flipped on this how many people actually clicked on that so it's you know when we have when you have a tool that is aimed for many different types of job roles it's good to have a possibility to it to communicate differently which goes in hand with when I talk about the the lifecycle yeah what I'm aiming for is like to talk the best possible way and the most efficient way to our different markets and you know it might get to the point where it's just like changing copy it might get to the point where just like what if we have a dark version of the home I don't know let's see how it goes there isn't really a limit and we're just like starting with with our own internal thing so that's exciting it's got like a yeah it's good to know your impact it's good to know like you know how you're actually changing the same way that you know when I was on boarding on growth I was like what if you do something and you know sales just go to zero percent or you know you have the power to grow an experiment and the experiment is like really bad mm-hmm and maybe you're you're like I don't feel comfortable talking about like numbers because I have no idea but like what if you know I'd do a change and like we're losing millions of dollars right right and you're like like that was only an experiment like you know just put it back just the way was yeah it's my stakes isn't it at high stakes yeah but the positive side of that is it's really really rewarding yeah when when it does work out and even if it doesn't you've learned now you know you're worried that for next time yeah cool exactly all right we talked about performance of projects what about your performance s the brand designer on the team how is they're handled internally a web flow yeah how is your performance measured yeah so we have TD sees as assured is a team development cycles okay it consists of you first looking for peers that you want to be reviewed from so and then obviously those people also look for who's going to review them so you end up basically having to review let's say six around six people from different teams yep and you also have like a self-assessment and then your manager also like in my case Ryan he will give me some like feedback how I've been working lately and it can go it can get more like to a personal level there are some things that you know I'm totally vulnerable and I can open book with Ryan so whenever you know I'm not feeling well I will let him know I appreciate you know honesty and and having this like you know I feel really comfortable where I work and I feel really kinda like at home so I I I'm not afraid to you know just speak up my mind to to Ryan and I I love having that like complicity with him yeah that's right so for my peers sometimes what I usually do like I know people that are really grateful for what I do and they're like no I I would probably not reach out to those people to get a review because I'm just the positive feedback I don't want it yeah it's not about like getting like cocky or anything yeah yeah I don't want a feedback is gonna be like Johnny's amazing he's so fast like I want some more like solid info yeah thanks to what that I can work on yeah exactly yeah so you know it's always great to have like you know awesome words about you and you're like thank you like it makes me feel proud and it's got like you know my like little endorphin booster yeah but I try to be trough for people or maybe like not tension but maybe you know we had a couple of like bumps along the way and then we know we went over them and you know part of wound out very smooth and but I just I'd like to know how I can be better how can be a like a better partner for you how I can be my best self and by saying that is like how the brain suit you can you know can work more efficiently with you you being community or events or I don't know maybe like a side project that started a conflict of 10% project then and then ended up being you know like a something probably can be launched right live so it sounds like you're really seeking out that like positive critique like constructive critique that's so what I'm looking for yeah and and and usually those feedbacks are like something good something bad and you webflow has like bushes really really strong for their core behaviors which is like pretty much how we embody what flow how we act how we talk a lot of it is based on that too a lot of the feedback is like what core behavior do you think Johnny embodies the most what core behavior do you think he could work on for the next video it's a good way to just like kind of like like set objectives for myself yeah for the next time so it's like for example to get like specific is like I I'd love to work fast and I consider myself like a fast worker and people appreciate that but sometimes I work too fast okay kind like leaving people along the way or like not communicating and keeping people updated the way I should so maybe I do it like a couple of extra steps and then I have to do a couple steps back too and then continue which you know working fast is good but it's not always the best way to work right and it's something that you know like it's like I technically know it but then I only realize it and process it when I read it from someone and I'm you know what actually yeah maybe I should just like trying to be more more inclusive when I work when it comes like to speed of course yeah so that's something that you're working on now and like an area of growth for you then what about for the brand design team or you know brand studio team at web flow what are some challenges that you're working through at the moment or like the next things your areas of improvement that you're looking looking to work in yeah so a lot of it and I think that this would be the answer for cooling startups and growing teams is processes mm-hmm is having processes being respected the same way that I talk to you that that that I said about DMS like sometimes IBM is easier but it's not the process that we should that we should be following so if somebody tells me like hey there's a typo on this page can you fix it and I can like I would usually jump in and do it and that be fixed in my car no two minutes because workflow by but it's not the best way to actually approach it should we maybe like a document what changes are being held and then I then like I'm like should I ask this person to create a task in asana for maybe like change a ball to bell and it's just like one letter like somebody somebody might take more time actually creating a task write the next destination yeah denim yet actually fixing it maybe like even like I somebody comes out like somebody reaches out to me about changing something and then I tell them like okay can you create a task like yeah sure I'll do that tomorrow right and I'm like I can just you know if you do it now I can do it now but but then I gotta like you know like we have to trust the process like I don't wanna be that person telling you telling you every single time like hey can we can you create a task for this but in the end it's just you know everything is documented everybody knows who works on what change everybody knows what change was corrected at what time so it's you know it's better for everybody so our challenges right now is trying to be the best partner for every other team and still be able to you know respect processes and having these clear a clear way of communication like a clear channel of communication within teams so that people know what they can expect from us and people know how we work and it sounds simple but you know it takes it takes a while to actually have things working the right way for several teams considering that the right way for us might not be the right way for another team so it's like getting used to that and just like adapting to how they want to work from for me like I want to make Ryan's job easier since he's my manager and whenever I work with somebody I want to work I want to make a very job easier however I can this be something that we've been going through at convertkit as well I think it's just a company growing you and where it used to be just a couple of people talking to each other and now there's like you know dozens that need to be kept up-to-date and you just got to get better with documentation and processes and things for sure what about the impact of the brand design team within the company like it sounds like it webflow it's pretty dang important yeah so as I said before the brand studio team has full ownership yeah when I joined wet flow something that would come out of my mouth a couple of times would have been do we want to show this to Vlad or Brian like or anybody in the executive team yep and Ryan would say like no just you know let's see like let's actually get to that point maybe at the end you know but not not right now it's up to us to to work on this and you know find the best solution for this yeah and then maybe at the end they will say like yes it's awesome but there's no need to actually you know include them at that at that stage of yeah and get their feedback Midway yeah sounds like you're very trusted and you obviously do great work so that's really cool thank you when I think about web flow I think about what the brand web flow is it's way more than its colors it's way more than its logo is way more than than the product I feel like it's the combination of first the people that are part of the team everywhere like when I have meetups here in DC or when I wear like I'm doing like portfolio reviews and I mentioned that I'm a web flow you know people just they were like oh yeah awesome web flow and I'll be like whoa and you know i-i've been in meetings where somebody said like I work at X company it's like a huge company and it was like cool and then I say web flow and it's like Oh awesome yeah we love web flow it's like wow like you know I you know that says a lot about either the product or just like well flow at like in general absolutely defense that you know the customer support team are some of the nicest people I've ever met our our CEO is one of the most like outspoken people and you know more like I've never shared a vision more than with anybody pretty much than what I should share with with with LED and you know the product itself and just like the our efforts on democratizing web development for anybody to create a website is just like I feel like the brand is way more than than brand studio I can do when we can do as much as we can from our side and make it you know as pretty as possible but our brand is so much more than what we produce I love that Johnny I feel like that is a perfect point to end on like you just summed up how I feel about the web flow brand ask someone who has that reaction when I meet someone who works at web flow and yeah it's all of those things it's not just the product it's the people it's the company in and all the things so thank you for sharing with us how it all works there so Johnny where can people go to find out more about you online or when people connect with you so you can find me on Twitter at call me Johnny a lot of people write Johnny very different ways just in case it's Jay Oh hmm you can also check my profile on wet flow which is wat phou kham slash it's Johnny Johnny spelled the same way all my projects are all cloneable they're all open for anybody to just clone and start working or just see how things are going I'm also open for portfolio reviews or just you know like any sort of like career advice or any sort of like you know just geek about design just I'm very friendly so feel free to reach out to me on Twitter and we can just get that going I'm sure there's gonna be a lot of people interested at that I get asked to do portfolio review videos all the time so there we go people contact Johnny and he'll he'll give you some feedback awesome thanks for being here Johnny thank you very much for having me here Charlie it's been a pleasure thanks for listening everyone if you enjoyed this episode it would mean the world to me if you wanted to head on over to Apple podcasts and leave a review for it there really helps us get the show out there this is a show that in case you didn't know is available in both video and audio form you can watch the videos on my youtube channel Charlie Murray TV and subscribe there to be notified whenever a new one goes live or you can find the audio version as a podcast in whichever podcasting app you use just search for inside marketing's line I'd love to hear what parts of this episode stood out to you what takeaways did you have from this conversation with Johnny what was interesting to you you can tweet them to me at Charlie Prangley or tag me on instagram under the same handle I'd love to hear about it thanks again for listening and I'll see you in the next episode bye [Music] you

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